Wednesday, June 18, 2008

GIVE US LIBERTY, GIVE THEM DEATH

PIG POWER

My mind's already thinking 2012 when Americans will be good and ready to vote for someone like Guliani with a John Bolton as his back up. Hope it's them, but it will have to be someone like them; tough, principled men who understand it's a dangerous world and who are willing to say and do the difficult things, and who don't give a damn about being disliked by despicable people. In four years, things will get worse and more of us will be sicker of the status quo that the candidates that will be taken seriously will be the kind of men who get things done and who fully defend our lives with the enemy's deaths.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't know about Giuliani, but a John Bolton as a back-up suits me just fine.

In the meantime we could play MSM Election Coverage: pick the winning ticket and pretend that the voters decide.

George guy said...

I still can't get over this one letter to the editor in my local paper someone wrote.
She said something to the effect of "I'm tired of getting all these phone calls from people's campaigns, to the point that I might automatically vote for whoever has pestered me the least." (not the most solid piece of reasoning, but so far I can sympathize). "I trust the paper to give me all I need to know about the candidates." AAAAAAAAAAARGH!

Yes, every couple weeks or so they'll put out a chart that lists each candidate's position on a particular subject, and it's fairly objective. In the meantime, the news is saturated with whatever the Associated Press and ABCNNBCBS pronounce "newsworthy."

That's why Giuliani fell off the radar; he wasn't newsworthy enough. Same for Fred Thompson.
For this problem to be fixed, it would require breaking the cultural doctrine that news media are trustworthy and objective on all things, and that may have to begin with the kids.

Robert Jones said...

Whoever wins or loses or is nominated, I never fail to recommend exercising your Second Amendment rights. That's the best guarantor of liberty.

Godfrey of Utah said...

Anyone who is willing to call evil what it is and will disregard all the apologists and liberals and anyone else who coddels the terrorists has my vote for sure. I was so mad when congress would not appoint John Bolton as Ambassador to the U.N.. The liberals allowed their hatred of anyone associated with Bush to cloud their vision.

Rebel Radius said...

This is my favourite Bosch.

You packed it and slogged it to me (the reader).

I just LOVE IT!!

phuckie slum said...

bosch,

Your artwork is always very original, great looking, power and witty, but this time a waved fist in the frame is a bit of a contrast to the rest of your work, and is on par with fundamentally extreme associations, regardless of how true you are. On top of which, it accompanies a generic lash out of "give them death".

I think you ought to be cautious, IMO, to not blur the line too much. This is a very extreme poster, and I'm afraid this can easily attract the wrong audiences, from both ends of the spectrum, to your site.

Hope you agree.
PS

Rebel Radius said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rebel Radius said...

Phuckie slum: In your words one would fight extremism with moderation?

A bit like trying to shove a stick of butter up a cats rectum with a red hot poker, don't you think?

phuckie slum said...

Rebel Radius,

Your derogatory distortion of my point on a completely universally recognized extremist design, into "fighting extremism with moderation" is absurd.

Fight fire with fire, sure. War is ugly - Jihad is uglier - time to get ugly, sure. All that falls in the vicinity of patriotism. However, we need to fight extremism with strong determination while being smart about it - purely without the rage of extremism.

The design of a waved fist in the air along with "death" chants is extreme. If you can't see it, then you're lost.

Rebel Radius said...

Oh I see it and I HATE it enough to LOVE the reflection.

In times of danger even the most ardent of lover's will slap the face of a beau in order to wake them into survival mode.

Bosch Fawstin said...

phuckie slum,

If you notice, I flip the enemy's 'ideas' a lot, using them against them. Such as my 'Honor Killing' post and others. Fighting fire with fire is behind it, as my 'Fighting Terror with Terror' post.
It's all about context and the word Liberty puts it in its fully intended place. A raised fist is a very human thing to do, for celebration, victory, etc., it's not the exclusive symbol of extremists. And I'd argue that it must be taken back as such, if it's overly percieved that way.
You, and those who know of me through my work, understand. If others don't, or don't want to out of bad faith, so be it. If I were overly concerned about how my work is percieved, I couldn't send any of it out there.
It did cross my mind, I admit, but I crossed it right out. Taken as part of my work, it's fully understood, and the word Liberty, and not Revolution, spells it out clearly. I see your concern, but since you understand what I intend by it, that should be enough for you and others who get it.

Bosch Fawstin said...

Rebel Radius,

Thank you. I was 'accused' by a libertarian recently of being in a war mode, as if we're not. As if 9/11 didn't happen, as if I'm just doing my work in a vacuum. It's our refusal to BE in a war mode that's guaranteeing a far bigger war in the coming future. A war that could have, should have, been put down ruthlessly from the outset, by extreme measures.

Bosch Fawstin said...

P.S.

If you notice as well, PM's fist is in the act of Giving 'em Death, it's not just a raised fist.

phuckie slum said...

bosch,

Of course fists in the air can mean victory and other very positive gestures. But also waving for someone can be captured as a Nazi salute. But my point is that framing a raised fist, with extreme slogans as a symbol - is always perceived as extreme - no matter how just it is.

In fact, it's the only symbol featured in almost any possible violent or extremist movements. In a way, this doesn't deviate a whole lot from some other great designs you made since you're trying to use the enemies own vile approach on them, but IMO, Pigman grabbing a terrified terrorist by the beard, or him taking a last glance at the Jihad grave he just finished undertaking - are incredibly creative, more powerful and healthily vengeful.

Here are some links:

http://www.rawpostproduction.ro/black-power-pin.jpg

http://www.ns88.com/shop/images/wpfist01.jpg

http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/resistance_movements_unite.jpg

Just from picking out those mere few from a pool of puke in google, I got sick to my stomach.

Bosch Fawstin said...

phuckie slum,

Your thoughtful concern is noted. About the image, I like the idea of a an old, tired, pop image of supremicist power being turned against the ultimate supremacists in the name of liberty. I will also add that part of what drives me to go to places with my art that could seem questionable is our pathetic, limp response to naked evil. I can't go soft with my art against hardcore evil, even if the price is to be seen as as as extremist myself as I've been accused of being, and not only from enemies.

Bosch Fawstin said...

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.'

-Barry Goldwater, acceptance speech as Republican candidate for President, 1963

phuckie slum said...

Bosch,

I guess this where we're different. There's a point in art that I personally cannot cross myself. I have, a lot of times - pretty much in the lights of the neverending case of islamofascism. But in retrospective, I am glad I kept clear from getting used to cross the line.

Powerful messages have a far better effect than actually using fascistic known designs to make the point of "fighting fite with fire". What's the difference then between that and actually supporting groups like vlams belang or BNP? To me, they are both past that line.

That said, I agree with your actual post.

Rebel Radius said...

"Civility in the face of evil is no virtue"
- Lindsay Perigo

phuckie slum said...

My point is still being completely twisted - all those philosophical slogans are as equally wishful as Obama's "Change" and "Hope" are. If anything substantial, it's "For Evil to Triumph, it takes good men to do nothing".

My point is clear. I never said we need to be civil with terrorism or Islamism - or any fascism. I just can't abide by the very raw symbols of extremism, even if it's a truly just cause. As much as I whole heartedly understand this poster, there's a little dot in my heart that I know is the very hole we can't fall through.

Why wasn't Captain America used along with extremist designs to ensure superiority over the enemy - and non-else but Hitler himself? Because Captain America doesn't need to remind us of our just cause through supremacism. He represents the good. He's a protector, not a nut.

Sure, Pigman is a lot more gritty and raw. He rose up from the rubles of 3,000 murdered Americans and his vengeance theme is deep dark using the very things the enemy despises the most, like Pig leather skin and their method of killings (although Pigman hasn't used anything related to Jews, the ultimate enemy of Islam). That said, it doesn't make it any right to feature Pigman in a very fascist oriented realm and boast death.

IMO the best effect politically, economically and even professionally (although I'm sure bosch isn't worried about that), would be to get Pigman out the door for the masses. But a design like this is doing an excellent job at marginalizing him - no matter how vengeful and dark his theme is.

It doesn't mean Pigman shouldn't torture terrorists, show them panties, wave Israeli flags in front of them or crush a Mosque-ito that hosts them tucking their tails between their legs.

I have come to believe Pigman is a superhero bent on brutally destroying an evil many refuse to see and understand. This very poster completely rattled my cage.

Edward S. Isaacs said...

.....I'm afraid it won't matter who is the nominee, because we've become The United States of Goldman Sachs. If you think the answer to our problems is the Republican Party, good luck to you. Giuliani is just another Internationalist like George W. Bush. What we need in this country is a grass roots nationalist movement that will put America first, without regard to "what others might think".....as I see it, the future is very gloomy.

phuckie slum said...

And who is your vote, Ron Paul?

Bosch Fawstin said...

phuckie slum,

I'm the only one who will fully agree with what I write and draw. As it should be.

Bosch Fawstin said...

Edward S. Isaacs,

I do not believe and did not say that the Republican Party is the answer to our problems. I'm not a party man, but we don't have Time to wait on your abstract idea to come about. We're at war Now and Guliani is the last guy the enemy wanted in the White House when this election began and he has a serious shot at getting into the White House in time. He has a very un-politician-like history which appeals to me. In the here and now, he's the one until a better man overtakes him.

Damien said...

Well guys, it looks like we have yet another reason not to vote for Obama.
YouTube_Video

At best, he's a naive fool if he actually thinks what he is saying here is a good idea. Does he not realize what kind of message this will send to Americas enemies, Jihadist or otherwise? Plus if technology continues to advance, putting weapons into space may be an inevitability, why shouldn't we be the first, to give us an edge? We want our enemies to fear us, since, the price of their friendship is too high.

I originally found this on Rush Limbaugh's website, but since he takes stuff down on a day to day basis, (and much of his archived stuff is available only to subscribers) I put the You Tube Link instead.

By the way, nice art Bosch, unfortunately, other then the words give us liberty, it has a sort of quasi Fascist look to it. That said, I hope you don't take it the wrong way. I know you are not a Fascist, its just the fist in the air. I don't think you intended it.

Bosch Fawstin said...

You suggest that this anti-fascist piece 'has a sort of quasi Fascist look to it', and then want me to not take it the wrong way. At least phuckie slum's problem with this piece is not an afterthought.

Damien said...

Bosch,

It is not that big of a deal, I just associate a clenched fist in the air with fascism. I know you are anti fascist. I was just giving you a piece of artistic criticism. I actually agree with your intended message.

phuckie slum said...

Bosch Said:
phuckie slum,

Your thoughtful concern is noted. About the image, I like the idea of a an old, tired, pop image of supremicist power being turned against the ultimate supremacists in the name of liberty. I will also add that part of what drives me to go to places with my art that could seem questionable is our pathetic, limp response to naked evil. I can't go soft with my art against hardcore evil, even if the price is to be seen as as as extremist myself as I've been accused of being, and not only from enemies.


Bosch,

You don't need to turn your art into ape-shit fundamental in order not to go soft on the enemy (the whole two wrongs don't make it right sorta thing). Besides, you have not gone soft on the enemy in the slightest, not once - and goddamn rightfully so! Obviously this disgusting enemy deserve every bit of your harsh, just and witty designs - and all the laughter when they get crushed.

However this fist poster, no matter how relative it may be to your pool of art, has an immediately recognized extremist perception both to newcomers and fans together.

You're also tying other unrelated cases of liberals wrongly accusing you of being an extremist just because of your take on terrorism, to actually adapting extreme elements to make a point, and accordingly being criticized by some of your loyal fans.

My view is perfectly parallel to Charles Johnson's aversion to all those who split up to support the anti-jihad neo-nazi movements. They don't care about all the odin symbols and white power hidden messages many of these extremists tuck under their belt.

Lastly, flipping the enemy's "ideas" against them came across very well throughout many of your other designs - but I'm afraid that this fist design will deter the sane masses. If you think that following through with my (and the sane masses') pov will confine you to a limited realm of less-than-right artistic expression, then I don't think I can explain any further why adapting real extremism is wrong.

Thanks.

Bosch Fawstin said...

phuckie slum,

You obviously feel strongly enough to write as you have about it, which I really do appreciate, especially as an artist. In spite of our opposing views regarding this particular piece, I think my track record speaks for itself, esp. if this is one of the only ones you've taken exception to.

Bosch Fawstin said...

And thanks to you as well, for your willingness to challenge what you believe is worth challenging.

phuckie slum said...

I admire your professionalism and gratitude, bosch.
I am still a fan of your work, and of course, I won't tilt the whole thing over a single design.

Mike Thompson said...

As we recently discussed, Bosch, it may come down to pinching one's nose and voting for the least offensive man for the job. Neither candidate (especially Obama) sits well with me. It's a farce that these are the best among us. I hope we make it to 2012 without serious incident.

Love the illustration, Bosch. You draw great hands.

Bosch Fawstin said...

phuckie slum,

Ditto, as it should be, we're in the same side in the end.


Mike,

McCain will hurt America less than Obama will, and looking from the enemy's perspective, it's a no-brainer, regardless what flaws he has, and there are plenty. But Obama is truly the enemy's Hope.
Thanks again for the appreciation again on how I draw hands, they're incredibly important to get right, and they're able to express so much.

NorthernSniper said...

Bosch, I have been taking in all the images and writings up to this point and have enjoyed all of it. Everyone leaving comments and discussions here make very good points, which in turn make me evaluate my decisions/opinions.

But the comments regarding this particular image you created has raised some powerful thoughts, emotions, ideals and images. I read all the comments from Rebel, Phuckie, Damien and you and I understand where Phuckie and Damien are coming from. Their concern about the use of the image and a mixing of messages; so after I finished reading all the comments I went back to your image. I looked at it again and did not relate it to fascism, or black hate/white hate or whatever. I see a clenched fist, one that is enraged and wants to crush the islamists.

I for one have not viewed or remember seeing a clenched fist in the ways that Phuckie has (I viewed his examples) so this image is sort of new to me. The thing is it touched a nerve to some and not in others. For me your whole series so far has been very, very good! Some of the images blow me away; others are awe-inspiring while others make one imagine the near future.

This is all I wanted to say regarding this image and everyone’s comments. I do not want to get into mental wrestling with any of you; I want to continue to enjoy the work that all of you patriots are doing.

Bosch Fawstin said...

Northernsniper,

Welcome to the blog and thanks for sharing your thoughts and for the generous words.