Thursday, November 13, 2008

They Say/We Say

Read my companion piece, CALLING ISLAM "ISLAM" 


savagenation said...


May I have your permission to link up this site to my blogroll? I just love your work.

I think I spoke to you on LGF at one time or another.

Jan said...

In defense of Daniel Pipes' notion that radical Islam is the problem and moderate Islam is the solution:

1.Christianity and Judaism have reformed their warlike elements, why not expect the same of Islam?

2.If Westernized Muslims, such as Muslims Against Sharia, are the beginnings of a reform movement, why not create political space for them?

Mahmoud Taha created in the Republican Brothers a version of Islam that is no threat to anyone.

We are on the right track: kill the killers and encourage the reformers.

Jan McDaniel

Bosch Fawstin said...


Of course, thanks.

Jan said...


If history teaches us anything, it is that a religion is whatever its practitioners say it is. The absolutes of one age are the discarded embarrassments of the next.

There is no doubt that the founders of Judaism and Christianity were more peaceable than Mohammed. The above is still true.

I don't get your cost/benefit calculation in rejecting Muslims who work for reform. If Pipes is wrong, we lose nothing. If you are wrong, we could lose a fifth column inside Islam.

On your rejection of Taha: if the majority of Muslims joined the Republican Brothers, they would be mainstream Islam.

It is much smarter of us to attack sharia than Islam. Sharia has been twice found to be antithetical to democracy by international courts and is arguably illegal under our Smith Act. Getting it banned in America would give cover to reformists and orient our law enforcement in the right direction.


Bosch Fawstin said...


1. We give Islam a status it doesn't have by thinking it's just one of many religions, all interchangeable in its tenets and history. Sharia Law and Jihad are unique unto Islam and we have to understand that distinction. Also, Islam is the only religion which has a doctrine of warfare practiced by its founder. Mohammed's murderous actions are what forced Islam into the world, and there's no way to reform Mohammed or his actions, which leaves us with the full understanding that Islam would never have had a place in the world were it not for death and destruction. Christianity's Crusades were a response to the Jihads and they lasted for just under 200 years because they were antithetical to Jesus' teachings. I'm an atheist, but Islam has made it clear to me that not all religions are created equal, Islam has taken all of the protections that religion in general has had, while taking all it can from the world and giving nothing back.

2. I've had a run in with Muslims Against Sharia on this site and they're not to be trusted. Read their responses to my essay 'Muslims vs Jihad' to know what I mean. At least the posts before they began cursing, which they deleted, which is exactly what they do with 'their' Koran.

And Jan, any individual can create any form of Islam they want, even one that rejects Mohammed, but that's not Islam. Islam is not what we want it to be, so pretending that there's an actual moderate Islam as opposed to an immoderate one is only helping Islam and hurting us, it's a Pipe's dream in the end and it does not help us. Islam is the Muslim world's great problem which they have to work out for themselves. The only thing we can do is ensure that they keep Islam to themselves, lest they will be forced to.

Bosch Fawstin said...


[For the record, I edited my post that you responded to, that's why your response came before it]

Islam in its origins is an evil ideology founded by an evil man. The idea of reformation of Islam is like attempting to reform evil, it's impossible. Those who we see as good Muslims who have accepted civilization are bad Muslims when it comes to Islam, and they will always, Always be unable to make their argument in Islamic terms. Osama bin Laden has Never been repudiated by non-terrorist Muslims and he can never be, according to Islam. Islam is not what we want it to be, and our desire to see it be redeemed is what's keeping us from taking it head on, with the full truth and full power. It's not our job to help Islam, we need only protect ourselves from it.

Bosch Fawstin said...

Jan wrote:

'If history teaches us anything, it is that a religion is whatever its practitioners say it is. The absolutes of one age are the discarded embarrassments of the next.'

No, philosophies and religion's have their own identity, apart from its individual follower's interpretation of them. So if most Muslims say that Islam is a benign religion, we have to accept that conclusion? No, because it is not a benign religion and its founder wanted what was not his and did whatever he felt like in getting it, by any means necessary. Islam is Mohammed and Mohammed is Islam, we must start there to understand what Islam truly is, apart from individual interpretations of it by Muslims or non-Muslims. Islam has its own, clear identity, Islam is Islam.

hellosnackbar said...

Still keeping up the good work Bosch,
A litle while ago I was reading the Koran(the maschochistic side of me)
and started substituting infidel for
muslim and vice-versa)and it was easy to see it for what it really is:
a hate rant which muslims hard wire
the impressionable immature minds of their poor children.

Bosch Fawstin said...

hello, hellosnackbar,

Thank you, and exactly right, if anything outside of the Koran recited the words 'Kill the Muslims wherever you find them', we would be tripping over ourselves to apologize to All Muslims, when the original 'Kill the Infidels wherever you find them' is never, ever mentioned.

Jan said...


You are arguing against history and we may have to agree to disagree.

Like you, I am not a member of any religion.

I think it is possible that we are living in a period of history that may see the reformation of Islam. Either in bin Laden's direction or some better one.

If we had lived in the time of Christ or during the Reformation, it may have been just as hard to imagine the changes that were afoot then.


The Sanity Inspector said...

That's a clever graphic.

mississippimud2007 said...

A picture is worth a thousand words, in this case, it's worth TEN THOUSAND WORDS. Tremendous job and commentary Bosch. Brilliant work.


savagenation said...

I just linked your site to mine and put in an introduction also.

Anonymous said...

Its funny when one thinks about it, from this picture they’re almost like “Honest and upfront Bad-guys” apart from most muslims in reality practicing taqqyia and dhimmi's outright lying for their own selfish little reasons that is.

But then, would it make much difference if muslims abandoned taqqyia and became the “Honest Evil” rather then the “Insidious Evil”?


George guy said...

The thing about Islam that seems so difficult for many people to grasp is that the core of Islam are the Quran and the traditions of Muhammad (police be upon him). This is not negotiable. Marginalizing the authority of this religious literature immediately results in something that can be dismissed by mainstream Muslims, with the full support of Islamic theology, as heresy. So it accomplishes nothing, in terms of reforming Islam itself, to define oneself as a Muslim while denouncing doctrines that are clearly laid out in the Quran and Hadiths, because the imams will never take such people seriously.

Bosch Fawstin said...

Thanks, sanity inspector.

Thanks, Jeff, always appreciate it.

Right, George Guy, 'Muslims' who denounce Jihad, etc,. cannot truthfully call themselves Muslim, since Islam as is doesn't recognize them as such. If they're not Fully For Islam, they're in the way, as we are.

Anonymous said...

Jan, you seem like a nice girl with a big heart, but you clearly do not understand islam very well at all.

The word itself means submission. You don't change something you have submitted yourself to.

A common name among muslims is abdalla, which means slave to allah. I just googled it and there were 1,760,000 returns. That's a lot of slaves huh? Think there some that go by other names?

When slaves rebel, they don't call themselves rebellious slaves, they call themselves free men. And while some slaves have no doubt influenced or inspired changes in their masters throughout history, the notion that slaves can band together (like some primitive labor union) to affect sweeping changes across multiple masters or slavery in general is ludicrous - much less affecting changes to the finalized perfected will of a callous, vindictive deity. That is breathtakingly naive.

Wherever islam holds total sway, they keeel you for even whispering it. And where islam does not hold sway that's because it is OPPOSED BY US, the evil infidel, and not because of some intrinsic property within islam itself that benevolently promotes dar al islamic zones of moderation. These neo-muslims of which you speak have no recourse whatsoever to islamic theology or authority. They will affect nothing, and I find them even more dangerous than the others for their ability to dupe sleepy infidels into a deeper complacency. Consider that their very existence is likely by design rather than by any good fortune with regard to our lot. They are woolly cloak, and they are not hanging from the peg in the corner where they ought to be.

In effect you're asking us to sip our koolaid very slowly rather than gulping it down fast. Islam will not moderate from the inside out, it will moderate from the outside in. The infidel will ultimately force it to on pain of destruction.

Please spend some time going over the archives at and then continue to help out with your shinning new perspective.


Jan said...


Thanks for the compliment, but I am 70 year old man.

No thanks for the Islam 101 lecture. If you carefully read my posts, you would realize I am quite aware of what Islam is.

In return for your translation of the word Islam, I recommend you learn why the Turkish Constitutional Court and the European Court of Human Rights declared a sharia-oriented political party illegal and what that might mean in the light of America's Smith Act.

The conflict between Islam and democracy may end as a global war, no matter what we do. There is no doubt we will win that war.

Between now and then, there are things we can do to reduce the number of Muslims who are willing to die for sharia.

Let's do them.


Damien said...

For those of you that don't know. This is what the Smith_Act is according to Wikipedia.

Bosch Fawstin said...

To those who use Facebook and like my work, I'm requesting that you help confirm my Facebook blog network page in order to spread the word about my work. Thanks. I'd like to become Facebook friends with many of you as well.

Bosch Fawstin said...

jan, the only way you stop murderous Muslim martyrs from killing us is if the Muslim world pays a price they don't want to pay, nothing short of that. There are most definitely things we can do to bring them to a complete halt once and for all, things that will be done in my book and hopefully in the real world later on.

Jan said...


Why the delete icon below my posts?


Bosch Fawstin said...


Mike Thompson said...

I think Jan is referring to the trash can icon that appears for blogger users who are logged in, Bosch. It enables you to edit/delete posts.

Bosch Fawstin said...

Yes, but I think there was something behind his asking.

butterfly said...

"The collective fit"

I'll cry some big crocodile tears for ‘em.

Godfrey of Utah said...

So true Bosch. We must be willing to call evil by its name. I agree that a price that Muslims will not be willing to pay may be required for peace. But a similar price may be required of us in terms of lives and worldly wealth and comforts. I know you do not believe in God, but I do, and nothing will change what I know to be true. We must take care. There is such a thing as balance. I have found it in my faith. We all find it differently. If reform of Islam is possible, I hope and pray for it. Keep up the good work in the war.

Joe Blow said...

Exactly. Lets do them. It will come down to a globalwar I fear so arm your selves brothers and dont trust the Democraps to do anything about it.

hellosnackbar said...

Daniel Pipes whilst well intentioned
is wrong.
Sadly the evidence points to Islam as
a cult of literalist fanatics who are so brainwashed that they are unable to think for themselves.
A key to counteracting terror is sadly counter terror.i.e. the terrorists have to be taught fear of
immediate and terrible retaliation for each and every outrage they perpetrate.
A late lamented antijihadist(George Mason)made the point that Islamoturds respected nothing except their so called "holy places".
He postulated that a few cruise missiles aimed at the Kabaa and grand mosque in Saudi Arabia converting the latter to a "car park"might persuade islamic fruitcakes that enough was enough.
Ample warning of the strike notwithstanding.
This might convince all Muslims that their "man in the sky"is at best powerless to defeat the technology of the west; and whilst an act of vandalism ,might save innocent lives in the long term.
Muslims must understand that polite opposition is a thing of the past.

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